8 Lovely Looks

Oh my gosh YES! Love Diabolical Lies.

I love love love the merchant websites that show the clothes on a few different body types/sizes. It’s so helpful and I wish they would all do this.

I really love the websites that give the measurements of the models, height, chest, hips, waist. so so helpful. That has made it so much easier to order things online and not have to return them because they fit wonky because the measurements of the garments aren’t always as helpful as seeing the outfit on a person whose measurements I’m aware of. And I find it interesting that somehow larger corporations can’t or won’t share measurements and can’t or won’t have different sizes of models but smaller businesses like Nettle Studios or Object Apparel do.

It’s a very mid-west/north-east look. Immediately makes me think of east coast uni. I can’t wear it but (also I live in the PNW) it is practical and a classic on the east coast (where I was raised early years), and this site is NYC based so… I hear you though. I prefer a featherweight cotton voile or silk scarf tripled around my neck.

Hey sandra, I’m naturally “rail thin” and my body is also normal. I realize my perspective probably isn’t super welcome here but just wanted to call out, for what it’s worth, that your comment feels as judgmental as you might feel people like me are of you. All bodies are normal. I struggle to find clothing that fits me because it’s all too big. I know, world’s tiniest violin, but it’s still true, sue me.

Happy that this conversation happens at all, and want to echo Joy’s comment that ALL bodies are “normal”. Also a petite, small-boned person through genetics. Not much going to change that and really work hard to promote the idea that is women should be celebrating the bodies that we have, in whatever ways we choose to. I am also a physically active person who lives on a farm and enjoys skiing and hiking in my free time. My body “looks a certain way” as a result of this. So seeing clothing modeled on short/petite people is helpful to me. Can’t please them all…

Agree with Joy and Stacia. This is my body type – slightly taller and always slim. A friend says “you’re so lucky..”. No, this is my body type. I am also a runner, yogi and regular gym rat, but those are things that feel good to me and my body. I’m an active person. Don’t try to tell me I’m not “normal sized”. This is my normal.

In answer to your question, I’ve been thinking about how there are different body types and even if the model is more my size, she may have a different body type to mine. I have a larger waist and no hips or butt, so lots of pants don’t fit me well…a bit tight in the waist and wide in the hips. I think brands should all use certain descriptors for their clothing so we know whether they’d work for our body type!

You made me laugh so hard!

echoing this sentiment

Your comment made me think of the SNL ladies rocking the *mom* jeans gif…… and I could’ve sworn one is wearing a cardigan and turtleneck… but nope. Polos!!! But thank you for the visual anyways. Young people don’t even know the former fashion trauma we’ve been through. Remember dickies??? DICKIES.

I’m sorry, Kim! I’m here for it! This winter I’ve been wearing vintage jeans with a tissue turtleneck and an oversized button-up (denim, corduroy), maybe with a chunky sweater in between, and it’s making me feel like a hot mom or art teacher or some other identity I can’t claim ;)

haha I’ve been doing this turtleneck under a chunky cardigan look lately out of sheer need for extra warmth and had no idea it was a trend. Or that people would have strong opinions. Anyway, vote in favor out of pragmatism even if the style is apparently controversial :)

Maybe it depends on your geographic location and / or memories of the mom’s in your life in the 80’s? I wear turtlenecks and sweaters happily and love a 80’s preppy look. It’s never gone out of style for my (very beautiful) mother here in New England.

I live in turtlenecks and sweaters all winter and I DGAF what anyone else thinks! haha Let it be a “Good for her, not for me” situation. Immediately looked at this and wanted to replicate it!

So funny. I was just going to say that the model’s expression also struck me as particularly hilarious for a Valentine’s themed post. And why not sneer a bit in a world-weary sorta way, given the general state of things??

i like it

I don’t mind the mom jeans, but I agree – the cardigan over turtleneck look is really not for me. BUT I also live in California… lol

On me if t would be major “ frumpy mom” ( or aunty in my case) it would probably look really cute on Joanna, but it’s definitely a certain look. This also reads as preppy to me, again not my favorite but others can pull it off. Legally Blonde , the rich bitchy brunette who then became cool ?

I love it; I feel like it suits me and my pixie cut. Also, I’m a priest and ever since I started wearing a clergy collar, I’ve been drawn to high neck shirts. It’s weird.

Agree to disagree! I love it. It makes me feel like Elaine Benes, in the best way.

Turtleneck is giving 90s picture day. Flashback I dont need to have. But, fine for her, not for me.

100% good for her, not me…. But omg the clothes in this post (in particular the entire outfit in the top pic) are the most boring normcore clothes I’ve ever seen. I’m all about dressing for utility /comfort sometimes (most of the time) but something about that particular look is like (to me) the antithesis of the “I’m not dead yet!” sentiment in last week’s week of outfits. (But I’m sure you all look lovely in it/you do you, etc)

Agreed! Love a turtle neck, love a cardigan, but not together, unless they’re the same colour.

I recently wore a turtleneck under a blazer-ish (but also sort of sweater-ish) jacket I own, with my reading glasses, and I looked like a pointy-headed intellectual… a hot, sexy pointy-headed intellectual. I am pretty sure my lovely (and nerdy!) boyfriend would be into this situation, and the turtleneck was actually a gift from him, so I am planning to wear the outfit for a date. Maybe even for Valentine’s Day.

@Anna this is what I’m saying! Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I used to be excited to shop and lately I feel like everything is so blah. Or, maybe I just need winter to end!

this look really reminds me of my mom. I lost her last year, which is why wearing it makes me feel warm, like chanaling her somehow…hated it as a kid, love it now.

thank you for the feedback, slu! I’ll blacklist this right away with our ad network.

Lion’s den? Really? What a gracious response from Joanna, as always.

I’ve never felt like I was walking into a lion’s den (seriously?!), and the comments are all over the place. This is the only place where my comments have been published about the live streamed 2+year genocide in Gaza, where I can repeatedly ask Joanna about not sharing the NYT, Zara links, and pretty much anything I like (there are limits). I appreciate this, Joanna.

LOL I love that the comments posted in response to SLU are exactly what they’re referencing in their comment. To be fair, I don’t think they were referring to JoAnna’s responses at all.

Hahahhaah Jennifer I agree.

I’m not Christian, but I’m curious why an ad about Jesus is more offensive than say, an ad for Southwest or Cherrios? Why should it get blacklisted?

@Briana – Maybe because the current administration is committing abhorrent acts and then saying things like: “We’re honoring Jesus Christ…all throughout our lives. We’re bringing religion back in America.” – DJT

Ads have to do with your algorithm. The ad on the side of my computer is for a hybrid car.

Jennifer, you’re spot on. And Slu, way to call it out like it is – high fives from this corner of the lion’s den.

Briana, I didn’t see the ad. But going out on a limb here – I’ve never seen an ad for “Jesus” that wasn’t from some fanatical right wing hate everyone org, all disguised and wrapped up in Jesus love for everyone, even tho they are in fact pouring money into politics to take rights away from people Jesus would have sheltered. So if it was that, yeah, that’s disgusting and horribly offensive and not at all the vibe anyone should expect here. I mean…… why does Jesus need an ad? That’s just wild.

update: I spoke with our ad network, and that ad won’t appear again. thank you again for flagging, SLu!

If you use Duck Duck Go as your browser, you won’t have ads here. At least I don’t.

Briana, I’m Jewish and I would find such an ad offensive. Being Jewish is not analogous to being Christian. It is a mixture of religion, culture, and ethnicity. The proportions of these can vary by the individual. For some Jewish people, religion has nothing to do with being Jewish (though it has influenced the culture part of the mix). I find the pushing of Christianity condescending and disrespectful of my background. I think that CoJ wants to support diversity in culture, ethnicity, religion, neuro-ability, physical ability, gender, sexual orientation etc.

Joanna doesn’t pick the ads. She is very gracious in her response but for the life of me I can’t figure out how an ad for any religion would offend anyone and why it would need to be black listed.

kinda fun that you used a Biblical reference in this particular complaint. (I’m being sincere)

Interesting that some people do not see the direct connection between rudeness (not criticism) and reactions. I would never speak to someone in real life the way some commenters write. The sad reality of online discourse.

I didn’t see the ad either, so maybe there’s context I’m missing. Christian nationalism (among other flavors) is awful and I get why it’s giving a bad name to the entire faith. However, I recently listened to an Ezra Klein episode with James Talarico and was reminded of another side of Christianity. I get why Joanna wouldn’t want it on her site, maybe it gives the impression of endorsement over other religions, but I still feel uneasy about treating a generic ad for Christianity as inherently offensive.

It wasn’t an ad for Christianity.

“It wasn’t an ad for Christianity.” Perfect response. Thanks, Joanna and commenters. I love this blog because of exchanges like this (everyone is curious; your messages are thought-provoking; it’s still the internet but at its best)

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. 1000000% agree that body-positivity/neutrality days especially within mainstream brands like JCrew feel a distant dream. And all those brands had so much farther to go – feels like they’ve mostly abandoned ship. Combine that with things like barrel jeans being popular…you can’t throw that shape at me without showing me how it looks on a fellow size 14 lol. Signed a happy mid-size lady

(And also say this with all the love to this beloved blog and it offering so much free content/its need to work with brands. Have loved all of your focus on ICE atrocities and think it’s wonderful you’re speaking out. All the power to you! Just speaking to the culture we live in and my hopes for a more body diverse future in our ‘visual culture’ .)

100% agree with both your takes.

I agree its discouraging, BUT some brands like Old Navy, Aerie, and Universal Standard have not abandoned size inclusivity and always have models of different sizes so I try to give them my business!

Oh my gosh, COMPETELY agree. I love my size and my curviness but even seemingly innocuous things like that turtleneck + cardi combo on my short necked, short-waisted, large chested frame would make me look like a substitute teacher from the 80s. I wish inclusiveness was ‘in’ again (and yes, I appreciate the absurdity of that statement.)

Literally my first thought too when I saw the red sweater outfit…. and on every website lately! Remember how lots of stores had an option to select what size model you want to see the clothes on? Those were the good ol days!

Hey, all. I love this discussion, and first, just wanted to say thank you to Rachel for kicking it off — and to everyone else chiming in. I just wanted to jump in and say that I’m very much on the same page about this issue — it’s real, it’s alarming, and it’s growing — and I (and the rest of the team!) really do appreciate you all voicing your own concerns about it. Body diversity remains an important value here, and it’s genuinely helpful (and heartening) to know that it matters to our readers too.

I fully agree (I run a women’s gym with a body neutral mission, and boy oh boy that shit is so deeply ingrained in all of us that I can still think of the taste of a Snackwells Devils Food cookie!) I am a very petite, curvy/muscular framed person and often feel this when I see 5’10” models. I also just want to give a hearty +1 to the barrel jean (as long as its cut for your height!) + also a baggy! Its a newfound freedom for my legs who are so used to wearing workout tights every day!

Just wanted to add that this is directly tied to the rise in fascism we’re seeing in the US and abroad! Historically as facsism rises, so do eating disorders and pressure from culture for women to be thinner and thinner. It’s about control. It’s a lot harder to fight back or even think straight when you’re starving yourself

I heartily agree with this! I almost never see any version of my own body type on a shopping website: short legs + large chested. I don’t really fit into “petite” sizing because of my chest, but jeans are my white whale. I’ve been wearing a pair of allegedly on-trend madewell jeans that are high-waisted, so give me a kangaroo pouch (we hate it!) and also, tragically, holding onto one pair of post-partum support jeans that had a built-in spanx panel that actually felt supportive and nice… until they had so many holes in them even my husband noticed and gently suggested I shouldn’t wear them to work anymore. Eeesh. All to say, I’ve been disheartened and resigned about jeans for my regular size body UNTIL I realized that Old Navy (who has held onto both body diversity and DEI efforts) makes rockstar pants in mid-rise! Mid-rise means no kangaroo pouch, they come in “short” length and they have stretch!! They are mostly skinny cut, but this Elder Millennial does. not. care. The high waist/barrel/wide leg atrocities that are going around honestly take me right back to middle school, which is not a thing I want. I’d rather be classic and comfortable than trying to be on-trend and these jeans are IT. If anyone else with a normal body needs that, here you go: https://oldnavy.gap.com/shop/rockstar-jeans-for-women-0adz00a

Hannah: That was my first thought as well. Diversity is not simply skin color. It’s the multitude of incredible and gorgeous differences we all share as human beings. That being said, I think we all know that these pictures are taken from the company and not the choice of CoJ.

Thanks for such a great dialogue, everyone! Glad to know I’m not alone. And Kelsey, I’ll never forget your article long ago about intuitive eating. Has come to mind so often since.

That means so much to me, Rachel. Thank you. You’re not at all alone. 💛

I work as a photo stylist in the online retail space and this is something I think about a lot. We are working under tight deadlines/with tighter budgets these days, and that for sure impacts the ability to see more size diversity online. Basically, when you have a job come up and limited time/resources to source clothing/samples it’s just much more efficient for every model who might be available to be essentially the same size. Also a lot of online retailers are also using a form of AI where the models face/body are superimposed on a mannequin. Not making excuses, I would love to see more body diversity, just highlighting that some of these choices come down to the turn it and burn it nature of social/online retail where they’re wanting more for less, get it out get it out. For what it’s worth, the young lady models I work with generally seem to be healthy and happy, we always enjoy lunch together. They’re very genetically blessed and proportionally nothing like the rest of us lol. I think the runway space is probably different, and this is of course only my experience. But with online retail they truly squeeze every last drop out of production time, with little thought of more than daily shot counts.

I appreciate this discussion so much everyone, thank you. How to fight back? Don’t buy from brands promoting nothing but super skinny. There ARE brands who are doing better, and they deserve our money. Fashion is JUST CAPITALISM , if we refuse to buy it, they notice, and change.

Here for this convo and would love to see a post about it on CoJ as well! And I’m really ruminating on the point about this aligning to the rise in fascism, ugh. Also Anon, your statement re: models “They’re very genetically blessed” is showing your inherent bias towards skinny. Why is that genetically blessed?

Thank you. I thought it was just me … being that I am a 60+ year old woman who wears a size 14 and wonder what the heck I’d dare look like in some of these clothes.

agreed! I walked into a J Crew Factory store last week, needing to step up my work attire, and I had no luck with pants in a size 12 (and wasn’t going to ask the teeny staff). Then I thought, “okay, sweaters!” but I could not locate a large. Went through all the piles below the stand and no luck. I turned around and walked out. They may serve the waifs in my community, but not getting $ from me. Much better luck at Old Navy.

This has (justifiably!) turned into not a conversation about the nightshirt… *but* if you’re still looking for great silk jammies, Rachel, Petit Plume is so nice (and under the $220 budget, though still not inexpensive) https://www.petite-plume.com/products/100-mulberry-silk-panthere-de-nuit-nightshirt

Completely agree! And yes to the “old” days of being able to shop online and click to see a different size on a different type of body. That was amazing. I’m feeling this particularly right now with swimsuits! I’ll need to buy one soon and it makes me so mad to see all these cute suits on incredibly thin, willowy bodies. Maybe in the spring COJ could do a swimsuit round-up on real bodies?

The speed with which the positivity was reversed after taking so many years, no, DECADES, to achieve is what frustrates me to no end. So much hard-won progress flushed down the drain in what felt like the blink of an eye. Anon, your inside view was interesting to hear and Amber, it’s funny you took “genetically blessed” to mean skinny (makes sense, given our topic here) but when I first read Anon’s post, I took it as meaning they were genetically blessed in the face department – somehow with striking features there. Funny how we interpreted that so differently!

So grateful that you raised this, Rachel. I’m a very sturdy, 5′ woman with curly hair that I’ve let go gray. And I love getting dressed! And being a little bit current! And it has been so hard of late. I was so excited to see Caitlin Abber’s outfit highlight last week because it’s such a far cry from all of the super skinny looking models that seem to be everywhere. And coming to this comment section helps me know I’m not alone. Thanks for that!

This doesn’t address the root issue with brands but I would encourage anyone using social media platforms to seek out style accounts that have the body types they want to see. Not only does it help to figure out how a trend or style will work on your body type but when you support creators that celebrate body diversity it sends a message to brands about what their customers want. There’s a lot of style inspiration out there right now that is way more expansive than a catalogue model.

Hi Joy – I read Emily Henderson’s design blog and she occasionally features fashion posts, including ones where her entire team dresses in swimsuits. You may want to search her archives for swimwear on ‘real bodies.’

If I may jump in, even the brands that show a very skinny model-type person and a more plus-sized person don’t help me. I am a medium-sized person and I would like to know what various clothes would look like on me! I followed the links to find the cardigan with the cherries and the photo said the model is 5’8″ wearing a size xs. That is utterly useless for me to know what it might look on my medium-height medium-weight self. Would love to see a true range of bodies modeling clothes.

Thanks for the callout Rachel, I do wish we saw models in more sizes! In response to your quest for a silk nightshirt, you might want to check out Haven Well Within. I bought a silk robe from them on sale and I love the quality. Not sure that any of these fit the bill for a classic night shirt though? https://www.havenwellwithin.com/sleep/washable-silk?start=0&sz=54#74967a769968ff51aca50df10e

Thank you Emily! And though you don’t know me, I have multiple tiger motif patterns in my closet, haha! Bookmarking for sure. Thanks again for the convo everyone! Would LOVE to see CoJ partner with more inclusive brands (cheers for the old navy collabs) and independent/ small biz inclusive retailers. Or even a “here’s this outfit on all these different bodies” post a la the swimsuit post by Emily Henderson. I believe she did it a couple of times- I always sprinted to it.

Hannah and all. Whoa. For some reason I missed the rise of fascism link to thin female bodies as a form of control, shame, and lack of calories for critical thinking. It all makes perfect sense, and I too have noticed an alarming trend of very thin bodies, and the lack of other sizes. This article is enlightening: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/far-right-radicalise-thin-skinny-fat-shame-women-girls-social-media-tiktok/

Megan I wish I could go with you! A martini and hearing an English professor’s opinion sounds like the most fun way to see that movie.

oh yes – and Hamnet! I am full of opinions on the Hamnet film…. and would absolutely LOVE to discuss Wuthering Heights… the trailer just feels like they didn’t get the book to me… (on a side note in uni my flatmate and I lived next to the ruin of a burned out mansion, sometimes on a Saturday night we would climb up it’s rickety stair case remains to the top floor (at midnight) and call out “Cathy” “Heathcliff” to people walking past).

I love the 2009 TV mini series version of Wuthering Heights (on DVD) starring Tom Hardy as Heathcliff.

Added a photo caption! Xoxo

Another Sara “with no h” here who had to comment because my husband’s birthday is February 13th. I love it here :) We also do something nice at home because reservations or going out in general is tough.

This is everything I wanted to hear tonight.

Gasp! The dress is gorgeous and I’m sure you will be, too!

This dress is amazing!

YES, E LOUISE. Congrats on being awesome, engaged or not.

Awww, yay! So happy for you and gorge dress!

Beautiful dress! And please keep us updated on the maybe proposal!

Gorgeous!

oh my gosh! wear this gorgeous dress in good health and happy times! wishing you the very best!

Okay, thanks to you, I just bought this dress for a vday date night – high fives across cyberspace. Will be thinking of you and crossing fingers for a proposal (!).

Go, E Louise! Keep us posted.

We need both of you to send pics in! The sisterhood of the travelling dress…

An update: He proposed on Sunday morning, two days ago, on a sunny side street in Point Reyes, California. We had to shuffle out of the way of a car who was trying to park, and he had to take my sunglasses off. We told the shopkeeper in the bookshop who grabbed our hands. And then drank champagne and ate oysters. Haven’t told my parents yet, but you guys know! I’m too excited or happy to sit at this desk and work.

Right there with you, Hana.

Same. Add personal financial woes to the above. My dollars are all spoken for, and I’m just not interested in helping this economy.

Same. I live just outside Minneapolis and every spare dollar goes to immigration lawyers, sponsoring local families and filling food banks. It’s the easiest my kids have ever taken to ‘no’ for extras as they worry about the state of things and the people they love. I feel like our families (cultures?) consumerism is forever altered, and I’m not sad about that part at all.

Disagree on the photos, but right there with you. The clothes leave me cold, as I say this as a someone who was raised as dyed in the wool preppie. Even if JCrew hadn’t lost its way years ago, discretionary money is going to clothes… there are better ways to spend $ out there right now, especially those who are being persecuted by ICE or helping those who are. That said, I don’t begrudge anyone who needs a new ‘fit [as the youngin’ say.]. Corporate America can carry on–that doesn’t mean that we. have to participate.

I hear you on dark lacy numbers, Tara! Finding them in cotton with eyelet and pointelle versus at the slinky end of the sleep-set spectrum is a slog. This is pretty if a bit sister-wife-y, but buying it along with the shorts would run you more than $200. https://thisisthegreat.com/products/the-eyelet-tank-black

Organic Basics has some cute pointelle pieces, I believe!

I cracked myself up texting my sister earlier and saying, “The trailer looks like they turned Wuthering Heights into a porno. It looks like a spoof of itself.” That said, I’m definitely going to re-read the book and watch it!

I wonder if y’all know about “the most wuthering heights day ever” events? Kate bush and these events get the mood of the book right, imho. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptuUEBgNJC4